Episode 2
· 40:42
Wow. That sounds so sexy and fun to work on.
Speaker 2:I set us both to male voice. I hope that's okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I appreciate you assuming the correct gender.
Speaker 2:Alright. Welcome to Product People, a podcast for people who build beautiful products. My name is Justin, and I'm calling from Vernon, BC.
Speaker 1:And I'm Kyle, and I'm calling from Edmonton.
Speaker 2:And Kyle, I thought for this week's call, I had an idea that we could talk about people, and specifically the people we choose to build products with. And I thought there's like two angles on this. One is if you're starting a new company or building a new product on your own, you have to choose a co founder. And two, if you decide to join an existing team as maybe a product lead or product manager, you have to decide who you're going to team up with, who you're going which company you're going to join. And we might also even talk about how you break into that.
Speaker 2:How do you break into product management, product lead, that kind of thing. What do you think?
Speaker 1:Sounds good. Yeah. Let's do it.
Speaker 2:Alright. Well, I thought to start, maybe we could talk about get a little bit personal and talk about how this whole podcast even came into being. Do you wanna just tell people the story about, like, how how did this happen? How did this podcast happen?
Speaker 1:Right. Well, you and I don't have much history together, which may be a surprise to anyone who's listening.
Speaker 2:It's true.
Speaker 1:We how long ago would you say it was that we we finally met in person? Maybe a month ago?
Speaker 2:Yeah. A month ago, I think.
Speaker 1:A month ago? Justin and I, for probably the last couple years, have followed each other on Twitter, both lived and worked in Edmonton at software Internet software companies. And so circle in Edmonton is pretty small and found each other through Twitter and bantered on Twitter Twitter a lot. And I think we even, like we sort of planned a few, like, hey. Let's meet for beers.
Speaker 1:And and then they ended up never panning out.
Speaker 2:That's right. Yeah. We missed each other a
Speaker 1:couple times. Of us cancel.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I would, like, be thinking about going to an event, and I decide not to. And it it would turn out you would show up. We were just, like, missing each other every time. Exactly.
Speaker 1:For two years. And then it wasn't until you moved to another province that we were actually able to coordinate an in person meeting.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:So, so, yeah, you came back to Edmonton for a short little business trip and we met with some other friends for beer and started chatting about products and kind of realized that we had a lot of the same, I guess, outlook and vision for how products should get made, what kinds of things are important, the sorts of aspects of product development that get us excited and
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think we both admitted to a tiny little business crush on Amy Hoy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. Yes.
Speaker 2:And so we
Speaker 1:And and probably many others as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. And so we we chatted, hung out. It was a great great chat, focused a lot on products. And then, I think it was maybe a couple days later, you messaged me on Twitter and said, hey, have you ever thought about doing a podcast?
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's it was kind of always something I wanted to do myself. I just never got around to it, I suppose. And just chatting with you over beer was fairly conversational and easy. And we talked about a lot of interesting things.
Speaker 1:I, I sure found it interesting whether a third party listening in finds it interesting. I guess that remains to be seen, but at the very least, I enjoy our, our chats about products and software and all that fun stuff. So it seemed like a good opportunity to maybe give this podcasting thing a try. I, I was pretty sure that I had seen you, tweet in the past that podcasting was something you wanted to give a try to. And I know that you're fairly active on your blog and things like that, so I thought, why not?
Speaker 1:They'll see if he's interested and see if we can make it happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I'm wondering what we could pull out of that whole experience because essentially, you and I have co founded a product. This is a podcast, but it actually has a it's the development of a podcast is in a lot of ways like developing a product. And you and I are treating it even more so in that we're trying to kind of do the a lean approach to podcast development and we're going out and we're doing customer development and we have a survey and we've been talking to people and asking them questions and all of that. But we've co founded this product.
Speaker 2:What do you think are some things that we could pull out of that that maybe would apply to other folks as they're, you know, looking to start a product and looking for someone to cofound it with?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think there's a lot of a lot of parallels. Anytime you wanna undertake any kind of creative endeavor with somebody else. So I think one of the, one of the most important things is to not really be afraid to approach people with ideas, like, and opportunities to collaborate on things. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure if it was last time we chatted, but, or if we had recorded it, but we had sort of talked about how, because of things like Twitter and blogging, people are just they seem more approachable. And even, like, your web design idols or your development idols Mhmm. Sort of seem like they're maybe on this other plane or whatever. You really look up to them. But in a lot of ways, they like, they're just regular people too.
Speaker 1:And the reason that they're so prominent in those fields is because they're passionate about that particular topic. So chances are if you're interested in that topic as well, and you, you know, you toss out an idea. There's nothing really to lose by tossing out an idea. Right? Like, I didn't know if you wanted to do a podcast or not, but, hey.
Speaker 1:Like, I'll at least mention it and see what happens because there's no, you know, there's no harm in asking, basically. So
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think it's okay to to to, even to approach people that you don't really know or have a good relationship with.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Definitely. It's kinda like you can just approach people just to hang out and you don't really have to have in mind that, oh, me and this other person, I really admire their work. I wanna build a product with them. That's kind of seeing, like, love at first sight and wanting to get married immediately before you get to know somebody.
Speaker 1:So just getting to know somebody and, like, kind of going with it. And if it turns out that you have good chemistry, which is, like, another important part of any sort of business or creative relationship, if you if there's chemistry there and there's, like, a shared sort of there's shared values and shared vision, then the opportunity to make a product together will kind of naturally bubble out of that relationship because you will naturally be tossing out ideas for, you know, different things that you wanted to build or different things you like. And naturally, I think if there's chemistry there, it's gonna come around to, well, what can we do together?
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Yeah. And, you know, your story sorry. Our story kind of reminded me in high school, I had this idea this is gonna sound funny, but I had this idea I wanted to put on a rave in my hometown. And I just remember feeling like I was into the rave scene and and I remember wanting to bring kind of this big city event to my little town of, like, 3,000 people.
Speaker 2:And to do that, I had to find someone that could do that with me. And I ended up going to this guy, Adrian, that I didn't know that well, and just pitching him on it, but I knew he was into knew he was into raves and DJing and I thought he would be a good partner. And I think, you know, sometimes it's okay to to kind of, as you get to know people and as you're involved in a certain scene, to approach people and say, hey, are you interested in this? Or maybe you just get that sense. Because as soon as I pitched him on it, he was like, he was in.
Speaker 2:And we ended up having a, you know, a really good business partnership for this grade 12 rave that we put on. But sometimes, don't even need to know the person really well. You can just kind of see who's out there, see who else might be into something similar. And I think really the big lesson is just get started. Like, you know, get together with them, pitch them on the idea, and then say, well, what would be the next step?
Speaker 2:And for you and I, the next step was just a phone call.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. I think that's an important point too, is that you don't need to have like, you don't need to know somebody really well to determine that you have kind of chemistry and potential to build something. Again, kinda comes back to romantic relationships. Like, there many couples who, you know, date for three weeks and then decide they're going to get married because it's just, it clicks so well.
Speaker 1:And, and in a lot of cases, that's how, how good products are made too. Like you just, people's vision just aligns so well that, and you're both on board, like, you said with your friend, Adrian and the rave, it's just like a no brainer basically to like, yeah, let's do this. It's something I wanna do. And it's kind of this summer, me and, my friend Jeff Archibald from Paperleaf, we went to Interlink. It's a web design her web conference in Vancouver, and they kinda talked about how one of the speakers, Jessica Hish, talked about how she went to, I believe it was TypeCamp or Type Cooper.
Speaker 1:Okay. And, basically, she spent however many days learning lettering and things like that. And we were like, hey, that's pretty cool. That's something I've always wanted to do. And so on the plane plane ride back home from Vancouver to Edmonton, we sort of were like, hey, would you, like, would it be crazy for us to try and do a typography or type design workshop?
Speaker 1:And we were both, like, instantly in to do it. And Yeah. He and I had never, like, really gone like, pursued any, like, we hadn't really worked together previously. Like we were good friends and things like that, but it was sort of like this out of the blue thing. Like let's do this.
Speaker 1:And then over the course of a month, we, I guess it was two months we planned and, and actually had this type workshop in Edmonton. And, but it was one of those things where you just throw out an idea and, you know, based on your relationship with the person, it's like, yeah, I'm in, I know we can do this. Like, we've got a lot of the same, you know, tastes, same tastes, same level of quality that we would expect, which is like a huge thing anytime you're like working with somebody and there's a difference in level of quality that you're okay with, that can cause a lot of friction and problems. So if you know that somebody that you're thinking of working with has kind of the same, expectations of quality and same vision, then it's, yeah, it's like a no brainer. It's like one of those things where you're super excited to actually pursue something with that person because you know it's gonna end up awesome.
Speaker 2:That's right. Yeah. That that inspiration is important. Like, the inspiration I think, Jason Fried says inspiration is perishable. And sometimes you are in those moments where you might have just met someone at a conference or met up with someone for a beer or something and you have that moment of inspiration.
Speaker 2:I found you really need to jump on those. Like if you're in and you're saying hell yeah, you need to jump on those whatever it is and just go for it. And a lot of times it won't work out and that's fine. But if you're kind of thinking about doing something, especially building your own product, and you happen to meet someone who has the same taste and same sense of quality and maybe even shares a vision with you, it makes sense to just get going and and take one step at a time and and maybe think about details later.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Definitely. That's, the biggest hurdle is well, one of the biggest hurdles is just making the decision to get started and actually do it. It's one thing to toss around ideas and say, oh, someday we should do this or, you know Yeah. Someday.
Speaker 1:But taking that first step and actually diving into, like, you know, we're actually do this. What what's the first thing we're gonna do tomorrow to actually get this started? Like, that is, you kinda have to seize the moment when you've got that, like, the inspiration. Yeah. Like you said, take advantage of it and take advantage of the fact that there's a person there who wants to, like, have the same sort of vision.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think the only thing I would add is that for me, I've always tried to do things on my own, and I'm starting to learn the the benefit of teaming up with someone else and working with someone else. And I just think that, you know, there's a lot of maybe entrepreneurial people or, you know, maybe a really great designer or a really great developer. And you're just used to doing good work by yourself. And the idea that of teaming up with someone might seem like it would slow you down or that would be a lot of extra work.
Speaker 2:And I'm just realizing more and more that the to build great products, you need a team. Definitely to start a company, you need a team. Even to start a good podcast, it it makes a lot more sense to have two people talking instead of me just talking to a microphone by myself. And so I've been thinking about that a lot, about the idea of teaming up with someone else and doing something together as opposed to as opposed to just trying to do it yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah. There's, totally a buzzword for that, the whole synergy thing where two people working on it, like, they're more than the sum of their parts. So you're not just if you have two people working on an idea, you're not like, you know, you don't have double the productivity. It's probably more than double just because you kind of push each other to work a little harder than you would if you were each working individually.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And, and there's also the whole thing of like complimentary skills, which is definitely important. Like if you're, if you're looking for somebody to start, like start a new venture with, whether that's a business or a podcast or whatever, it can be tempting to like, yeah. Want to do it yourself, especially like, I've found that a lot of entrepreneurs like myself included are a bit of like control freaks. And I think that's partly what drives the entrepreneurial sort of spirit, but it's definitely kind of in your best interest to give up the reins a bit and realize that you can't do everything. You can't be the best at everything.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. And so base, maybe it's better for you to, you know, rather than try and be the technical guy, the business guy, the designer guy, and the marketing guy, maybe just focus on the two things that you're like really passionate about and find someone else who sort of fits like those other areas. And then, because not only is it less kind of things for you to try and juggle in your head at once, but there's that whole idea where you're getting kind of fresh ideas that you wouldn't have if you were just by yourself. It's like a I forget what the term is for that, but basically, you're getting external input into your own head rather than just, like, relying on your brain to churn out your own ideas.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. I found that really helpful. And I'm still I feel like I'm a beginner in that sense of of, you know, teaming up with folks and not always thinking, I I've just I have to do this by myself, but Yeah. Actually working with other people.
Speaker 1:And it's hard, like, again, with the control freak thing, I think entrepreneurs are entrepreneurs.
Speaker 2:I like that word. Yeah. Entrepreneurials.
Speaker 1:Entrepreneurials. It gets even better when you try to say serial entrepreneurials. They, like, kind of by, again, by definition, have a vision for things for how things should be. And so that whole idea of giving up a little bit of control and trusting someone else to follow through with what might not be exactly your vision, but it it'll still be good. Like, it's a tough thing to do.
Speaker 1:Like Mhmm. And I even entrepreneurs who try and go it alone and as their company grows and even if they hire people and aren't really seeking a cofounder, I know that giving up control and delegating tasks even to employees can be difficult because you're just so used to, you know, having that vision in your head and entrusting that vision to other people can be, can be hard. And it's even harder when it's, you know, at the co founder stage, things are super early and there's a lot of room for error, basically.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So having, having, like, basically learning to give up some of that control to somebody else you trust is super important if you want to accomplish bigger things.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, and this is a good segue into the other side of the coin, which is joining another team, working for somebody else. And you just you just switched from freelancing to employment. Right?
Speaker 1:It's true. I did.
Speaker 2:Okay. So tell people which team did you join?
Speaker 1:So I joined a company called Granifi and, I joined them as a product I think my title is product and design lead.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So, yeah.
Speaker 2:And what does Granifi do?
Speaker 1:They it sounds complicated, but, they use machine learning and artificial intelligence and big data to help ecommerce stores earn significantly more money. And it is basically what it boils down to.
Speaker 2:Interesting. Well said. You you have that line down.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We've been kind of refining the pitch because we've sort of been explaining. We've gotten a lot of confused looks when we try and explain it. And really, that's the way to boil it down into I wouldn't even say that's in layman's terms because that's I said artificial intelligence, machine learning, and big data.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Okay. So thinking about this question, so I think there's two things. One, how do you decide which company, which team to join? And then maybe we could also talk about at the end, for people looking to break in to product management or some sort of product role, how do they do that?
Speaker 2:How do they get there?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So for you joining Granify, what was was it that made you want to join that team?
Speaker 1:So I think the main thing that so first of all, I wasn't actually seeking a job. I was once I started diving into freelance, the whole reason I dove into freelance was to kind of bootstrap a product I had building on the side called photo journal. That was kind of my plan. I was going to freelance enough to pay the bills while I continue to build and grow a photo journal. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But it gets to the point what I was getting to earlier. You kind of realize the limitations of one person. Like I could grow a photo journal to a point, but then after that, there's only so, so big. I can make it as one person. And it's also, you know, working from home by yourself, it's got its, it's also not as maybe inspiring in the same way that working with a team does.
Speaker 1:So one of my freelance clients, Granify was one of my freelance clients. And the, the CEO who has had some previous success with, building and selling companies, he's, he's got a lot of vision. And so basically, basically it was, the CEO's amount of passion and vision that really got me on board to, to come on and do bigger things than I could have on my own. So it was a it's kind of a new area, I guess, me, like e commerce isn't something I've really, worked in before. He's like, oh no, don't worry about it.
Speaker 1:Like, you'll, you'll figure it all out. Like what we're, what I want you to do is it was more like it's a product manager type role. So, I mean, in some ways it doesn't really matter specifically what product it is. It's, he's just like, he was more interested in my kind of like past history of like helping products get out the door and look good. So, so base basically, yeah, his, vision and passion were contagious and I was just, it was again getting back to the chemistry thing, like he and I got along really well.
Speaker 1:We've gone for beer and coffee a bunch and it always turns into four hour sessions, so it looks like really easy to talk to. We get along great. We've got that, complimentary skill set we talked about earlier.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It just was like a a great fit, so.
Speaker 2:You know, I think for me that's key. The not like you can check out a company and kind of get a sense of who they are. But I think if you're looking to join a company, it's hanging out with the leader of that company or if there's leaders but hanging out with them and seeing what do they value, what's their vision for this company, and just seeing if it gets you excited. And if it does, to me that's what I would pursue is if I hang out with a leader that excites me, then that's one I'm going to want to follow. And it was the same thing for me at Industry Mailout.
Speaker 2:The reason I wanted to join that team was because the leadership there were they had values that I shared, and they had a vision for a product that I could really buy into. So I think that would be definitely one thing is if you're thinking about joining a team is to finding a team that, where the vision excites you and you agree with the core values.
Speaker 1:Definitely. And I would say, like, that probably, for me anyway, that's even more important than, than the specific industry that the company might be in. Like, like I said, e commerce, I don't really have any experience in in e commerce, but the fact that I was so excited by hearing Jeff talk about the direction of the company, I was, I thought to myself, we're going to build something awesome. Like no matter what we, what we attempted to build, it was gonna be awesome just because of the level of enthusiasm that everyone has. And it's the same as like at a previous company I worked for, Yardstick Software that does, they do online exam software, which, you know, when you hear it, you don't immediately think, wow, that sounds so sexy and fun to work on.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:People who just love making stuff, they love working with customers, they love launching, they love watching revenue grow, they love hiring good people, they love building a team and culture. That's kind of more important than the particular type of widget you're you're trying to manufacture, I think, to me anyway.
Speaker 2:Completely. I think if the the vision is there and there's some core values that you agree with, I think you could be doing anything. You know, Zappos sells shoes. Thirty Seven Signals makes project management software. Amy Hoy has built time tracking software.
Speaker 2:None of those are really exciting in of themselves, but I think each of those companies is exciting and has a really interesting culture and really interesting vision, and have built incredible products. So, yeah, to me I don't think that the actual thing that you're producing is as important. Although, it's really fun when that you know, that happens too. When you when the product that you're building is also something you're really excited about, but it's not necessary.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Definite if you can have both, it's like a home run type situation. So but it's also like, if you have that team, it's, it's easy to suddenly start thinking maybe it's like that whole Stockholm syndrome thing, but like that at yardstick making exam software at first, I didn't really, it didn't really matter what to me, what we were building. Cause I was just having fun building stuff with the team. But, as we went further along, I started to really, really care about online exams and really want to make that an awesome experience, like the best possible online exam product we could make.
Speaker 1:And it's like the same thing with Granifi. The more I work with this awesome team to build e commerce software, the more excited I get about the space we're in as well. So it kind of has like a like a ripple effect on your interests, I suppose.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think that's I think that's the culture speaking. When you get excited about the product, even though you weren't originally excited, I think that's a result of culture. And like when I went and visited the Zappos headquarters, you walk in those buildings and you feel like a million bucks. Like people treat each other so well there.
Speaker 2:And you and really their product is customer service. Like it it's essentially a call center. And and think about these people getting excited about working in a call center. It's unreal. But they they were so excited to be at work, and it was seriously one of the most positive places I've ever been.
Speaker 1:A lot of people probably who are listening to this are kind of builders at heart where they love to build things they care about. And that's it can be hard to maybe fathom how people can get excited about things that maybe don't seem that exciting. But when you get in a room with people who are excited about it and you see the potential of you kind of can see the end goal of where you're going, then even though you're a developer, you don't mind answering the phone to talk to customers, to fix bugs because you're not just there to sit down and crank through code for ten hours a day. You're there to help achieve something bigger. And that's where, you know, people just results in so many things where people are doing kind of more than what they were maybe, maybe their job description says, but they're doing it because they want to.
Speaker 1:And those are the kinds of companies that if you're interested in building good products, those are the places you wanna work, where everyone is excited to build the best possible thing regardless of sort of what their job description says.
Speaker 2:If I was going to give some advice on, you know, getting into product management or a product lead role, it would be to find a great company and then try to, you know, just start at the bottom and work your way up.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Totally. I totally agree. It's back what we talked ed about at the start, which is kind of don't be afraid to approach these people that you really look up to, but maybe have never met before. So if there's a company in town that you really, you really admire their work and their company, or you know somebody who works there and just loves it, send the CEO or somebody an email and just ask if you can take them to lunch or to coffee or to for beer or something like that.
Speaker 1:And you'll probably find that more often than not, they'll be really excited to talk to somebody who's looking to break into that field. Because all of those people love like, we all love talking about business and products and software and customers and that sort of thing. So there's a good chance they'll they'll wanna talk to you.
Speaker 2:You know, I I seriously I probably I probably contact, I don't know, probably three people a week asking if I can meet up with them and, you know, I might get one out of three. Yeah. But it's the act of doing that that that kind of produces the results of actually meeting up with someone.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. You'll you know, I'd only get one lunch out of three emails, but you'll get zero lunches out of zero emails. So, like, why not send something?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Do you have anything else you kinda wanna say that's on the top of your mind right now?
Speaker 1:Well, one, one other thing quickly that I just was thinking of mentioning is like, if you're looking to break into this kind of a field, with, I sort of talked about how you want to work at a people may be step outside of like what their job description is and are sort of willing to fill in the gaps wherever necessary, whether that's answering the phone or doing customer support or helping with some design or writing code. I think those are the kind of people who, like, if you have a breadth of skill, I think those are the kinds of people who go on to be probably like excellent product managers when you've kind of got background in a bit of everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like one piece of advice would be to kind of dip your toes into all those different waters, like learn a little bit of code. Like you've, you've dabbled in code a bit. You've done some, you know, UX stuff. You've done some marketing and business and all of that sort of thing. And you don't really have to, you know, try to be the best in each one of those sort of niches.
Speaker 1:But if you've got a breadth of understanding, it just helps you talk between all those teams so much better because that's really what a product manager is. Right? You're kind of like the hub between all these different production teams. And so the more you know about what they're actually doing, the more effective you can be as a product manager.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And for me right now, my weakest point is definitely coding. And so I've been actively kind of working on that.
Speaker 2:I've done some coding workshops. I'm doing some online education, you know, I'll probably take a few courses. And the point isn't for me to become an expert developer, but the point is I want to be able to communicate with developers. I want to also understand at least the technology that we're using or that we could use. And I might not need to know how I could, you know, build it from the ground up, but it's good to know what pieces are available and, you know, and how we might use them.
Speaker 1:Exactly. I've got a good friend who's starting a new health care startup, and he's he's hired a team of Django developers. So Django is kind of like a Python version of Ruby on Rails, a web framework type thing. And he's hired a Django team from The States to build a lot of the prototypes, and it's kind of turning out that the prototypes are becoming the actual product. And he's got no, like, absolutely zero background in development or anything like that.
Speaker 1:But he's like, during the day, he's hustling, like helping getting this product built. And in the evenings, he's hired, another one of my friends in town who knows Django really well to tutor him and teach him coding and Django so that, like, he has no intention to dive in and start contributing code. But he's just really motivated that, the more he knows about what his developers are doing, what sorts of challenges they'll hit, when they, they run into a problem, he can understand what they're saying and possibly talk to other developers to try and find a resolution. Like it's just, it's a good thing to want to be well rounded. So you don't have to be, like you said, your intention isn't to become like an expert developer, but the more, you know, the better, the better prepared you are to be that hub between all the teams.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's really good advice, actually. If you're if you're looking to break into product management or being on a product team, then I think you definitely want to stick your nose in a bunch of different places. That's that's how Ryan Singer from 37signals, he explained, you know, he got his product manager job because he kept sticking his nose in design and development and business and customers. And eventually, they said, well, you're sticking your nose in all of these things.
Speaker 2:You might as well manage the product. And I think if you're going to be involved in managing a product, you need to stick your nose in a lot of different places.
Speaker 1:Definitely. And so that's a good example of somebody who's at a company and succeeded doing that. And then you have Amy Hoy, we talked about earlier, who she's more of the entrepreneurial side where she's sort of built her own products, but it's the exact same thing. She's got a background in design and code and, and marketing, and she's kind of, she's a pretty vocal person. So she's kind of got a following in all of those different audiences.
Speaker 1:But again, same thing, like well rounded. She's got a good background and all those different things. And as a result, she can, she might not be the one writing all the code or doing all the design or marketing, but because she's got a breadth of experience, she knows what needs to get done and she can assess if she's, you know, delegating it out. She can assess who's capable of doing a good job. She can say whether their work is good or whether it's not good.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I think that's a kind of an interesting contrast between Amy Hoy, who's kind of a bootstrapped entrepreneur versus Ryan Singer, who's fallen into or I shouldn't say fallen into, but grown into a product manager role with an existing company. In both cases, it's that breadth of skills that got them them there.
Speaker 2:That's right. And so if you're like I said, if you wanna break into product, like product management, start with a great company and just do whatever it takes. So start in customer support or start in design or start in marketing, it doesn't really matter. You just start somewhere and kind of keep thinking and asking questions and learning, and eventually, you know, you can kind of grow into a position where you might be managing a product.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great advice. Cool. Well, that was a good talk.
Speaker 1:Agreed.
Speaker 2:I think maybe we'll just close off by just describing to people kind of what stage we're at. This is our second phone call. And we've come up with this idea of building minimal viable podcast. And so we're following kind of this lean agile methodology to building this. And what we want to do is talk to as many product people as we can, really listen to some of the challenges they're facing, both people trying to build their own products and people working for companies.
Speaker 2:And we want to cater our content around that. So each podcast we put out, we're going to we want to hear the feedback, and then we want to refine the product. And so the next time we do a podcast, we want to take all of that feedback into consideration. So if people are interested in giving us some feedback, you can follow us on Twitter, ProductPeopleTV, or you can go to our website, productpeople.tv, and there's you know, you can comment on each phone call or episode that we we put out, and you can also at reply us on Twitter.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think it's good to mention that we're pretty wide open at this point and open to suggestions. So if there's specific topics you'd like to hear us cover or if there's people that you think would be interesting for us to interview, or if maybe you think you yourself have an interesting story, all of those are good reasons to get in touch with us and tell you what you think would make for an interesting show.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And we are really open to harsh criticism. So if you've got some criticism too, just send it over, whether it you don't like the sound of my voice or it doesn't really matter what it is. We'd love to hear what you're thinking because we will take that feedback and we'll put it into our project management software, and we'll actually try to refine what we're doing the next time we record. Well, it's been a good call, Kyle.
Speaker 2:I'm going to see you in a couple days
Speaker 1:in And
Speaker 2:everyone else, yeah, check us out, productpeople.tv. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1:Thanks.
Speaker 2:You need to stick your nose in a lot of different places.
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