Episode 16
· 40:44
This
Speaker 2:week, we have a great show. Nathan Barry is on the program. Nathanbarry.com. He's launched a bunch of stuff including some really successful e books and he has a new project called ConvertKit. Before we get started, I'd like to tell you about our friends at Sprinly.
Speaker 2:At my day job, Sprinly is what I use to, track our development process. Everyone on our team has a simple view of our company's development. On one screen, we can see what's in the backlog, what people are currently working on and what's been completed and is ready for testing. I'd like you to try sprint.ly out for free. You can sign up for a thirty day trial at www.sprint.ly.
Speaker 2:Hi. I'm Justin.
Speaker 3:And I'm Kyle.
Speaker 2:And this is Product People, the podcast focused on great products and the people who make them.
Speaker 3:And today we have a young whippersnapper on our show, Nathan Barry, here to talk us talk to us about building info and content products as well as a bunch of other things. So welcome to the show, Nathan.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2:And so, Nathan, for the people who don't know you, why don't you give us a background? Where are you from and what were you doing before you started building your own products?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I live in Boise, Idaho, which is not known for being a huge tech hub. But we have our handful of startups. And I
Speaker 2:guess What not for Boise known for?
Speaker 1:Besides potatoes. Yeah. Besides potatoes. Well, the state's known for potatoes, which is actually just a case of really good marketing. Side point, if you ever want to be known for something, or say that your product is quality in some way, just say where it was made.
Speaker 1:And so long as it wasn't made in China, know, then it's That's good that interesting. These are Florida oranges. These are, you know, the iPhone is designed in California. You know, and just the fact that you say that makes it seem higher quality. That's right.
Speaker 2:These are ketchup chips made in Canada.
Speaker 1:There you go. Anyway, I think people assume that if you weren't going to or the fact that you mentioned where it's from implied Right. High
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Anyway, so Idaho potatoes. Yes, that's what we're famous for. So, yeah, I lost my train of thought.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, just for your background, you're from Boise and what were you doing before you started building products?
Speaker 1:So I was going to college for first graphic design, then I didn't like that. I was frustrated with the art department at the school I was going to, and then I switched to marketing, and on the side I was building websites and doing freelancing and paying for college that way. And eventually that was going so well, and I realized that I liked making money more than spending it. And college was starting to get a little expensive. And so I dropped out and started focusing on freelancing full time.
Speaker 1:And I was just designing websites for different local companies. Probably my average project was about $1,000 to $2,000 And I made an okay living at it for someone who just dropped out of college. And so that was good. And then I ended up going on a long trip to South Africa in, I guess it was December 2008, January 2009. And I had just had some really successful months freelancing before that.
Speaker 1:And I came back from this five week trip where I'd done no work whatsoever, we're starting to run low on money, and I contacted all these companies that I had lined up and had been talking to, it's saying, okay, you want to get going on this project? And everybody went, you know, no. We're gonna hold off and we're gonna wait and see what our customers do. Because they said our customers aren't spending money, so we're not going to either right now. And so I basically went from not having worked for quite a while and ready to jump back in to do work, and nobody had projects.
Speaker 1:Except for one company that I'd and one startup that I'd done some work for, They ended up offering me a position leading their design team. And probably a couple months earlier I would have said, no way, I'm totally independent. And at this point I was like, yep, that sounds perfect. Let's do it. Because I was getting married in a couple months and steady income and all that is nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So this is 02/2009?
Speaker 1:Yeah. That was 02/2009.
Speaker 2:When you started working for the startup?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So then I led their design team building web applications for nearly three years. And so that took me to October 2011. And that was at the point where I'd learned a ton, and finally had enough of working for other people. And so I went out on my own and started freelancing again.
Speaker 1:And I had an I built an iPad app called One Voice, and that was making me a couple thousand dollars a
Speaker 2:month. Really?
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And so what I'd done is I created One Voice while working full time. So it was a side project. So there's no risk in building it whatsoever. And then as I started selling that, and it started out making $500 a month, and then went up from there.
Speaker 1:And I just saved all that money. So when it came time, One Voice came out in January 2011, by October 2011, I had about $30,000 saved up. And that's when I was ready to quit my job. Because and maybe $18,000 or $19,000 of that was actually from profit from One Voice. Wow.
Speaker 1:And so the previous time that I'd done freelancing, it was this roller coaster of income where one month I'd make $500 the next month I'd make $8,000 And I'd have this emotional roller coaster that would go with it, right? Feeling like I was on top of the world, and the next thinking like I can't run even a tiny business successfully.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so I knew that I had to have a product if I was going to go out on my own again. I needed another revenue stream to even that out. And so I got that through one voice that I had out. And so I only left my job once that was fairly consistent and I had money saved up.
Speaker 3:So with One Voice, you were building that while you were still at the startup, or were you building it as you started diving into freelancing?
Speaker 1:I built it while I was at the startup.
Speaker 3:So
Speaker 1:it was very much a nights and weekends sort of project. And that's what I'd say to anybody building products, is build it in your free time. There's no reason that you have to quit your job and kind of go all in and take on all this risk. You can I'm very risk averse. That's why before quitting my job, I save up a lot of money and build products beforehand.
Speaker 1:Because I think all this startup risk that everybody talks about is entirely unnecessary. At least for the type of business I'm trying to build.
Speaker 3:Right. So how long did it take you to build One Voice part time?
Speaker 1:It was four months to release the first version. And I was learning how to program in Objective C at the time as well. The first version was pretty basic. But I got it out there and then spent my free time for another six or eight months. I'd say most of my free time for six months more continuing to improve it.
Speaker 1:Okay. But at that point, I'd been designing a lot of iPhone and iPad applications, either for other freelance clients or for the startup I was working for.
Speaker 3:Right. And so was One Voice your first first stab at making a product? Or had you tried some other things in the past that didn't stick?
Speaker 1:Tried other things. So I had created a We'll back up and say, when I was doing the freelance websites, those were all in WordPress. So I would be a local small business and I would build a WordPress site for them. So I had a ton of experience building WordPress themes. So logically I should start a business selling WordPress themes.
Speaker 1:Because WooThemes and all these other people were doing pretty well at the time.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:And I'd watch the premium theme market for WordPress start and build some there. Yeah, and at each point thinking, I could start now but I'm too late to the party. Thought that for years, and seeing new companies come in and do really well and go, oh, well apparently they weren't too late. But now it's too late. That's nonsense.
Speaker 1:It's never too late. So I did eventually start a company or start a site around that. And I made some sales, but I didn't know anything about marketing at the time. And I was too easily distracted, so I bounced around to different projects. And I think I made a total of like $400 off of that.
Speaker 1:Well
Speaker 2:that's still interesting. And just for so we can kind of place this. So how old were you when you were building 2011? Sorry, in 2011, Building 1 Voice?
Speaker 1:So I
Speaker 3:would have been 20 or 21.
Speaker 2:You're twenty twenty one in 02/2011. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I'm 22 now. Okay. If you want to bring age into this picture, I have to back up.
Speaker 2:Let's bring it in.
Speaker 1:So if that timeline didn't make any sense, it's because I graduated high school when I was 15, dropped out of college at 17, and And then I was 18 when I joined that
Speaker 3:startup, and I'm 22 now.
Speaker 2:And when did you get married?
Speaker 1:At 18, in 02/2009.
Speaker 2:Oh, man. We're over.
Speaker 1:Hopefully that timeline helps.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. So wow. This is crazy. That's a lot of change all at once.
Speaker 3:Well, I'd be I'd be curious to know a little bit more about One Voice and why like, what prompted you because that's it's sort of a project management app. Correct?
Speaker 1:No. Actually, One Voice is an iPad app for I guess, if you can't speak, so if you have nonverbal autism or you had a stroke and lost the ability to Oh right. Then One Voice would be used on the iPad and you select tiles and each tile has a picture and then a word or a short phrase, and you use those to build a sentence, and then it has synthesized speech so it speaks for you. And so it's this iPad app that replaces a 6,000 to $10,000 medical device.
Speaker 3:If you can imagine these ruggedized touchscreen PCs that cost a small fortune. Right, right. Yeah, I had it mixed up with OneMotion, another app of yours. Okay. So that seems like a pretty ambitious first app for you.
Speaker 3:What prompted you to tackle something like So
Speaker 1:when working at this startup, we heard the iPad was coming out once it was announced. And the management decided they wanted to have an iPad app out the day the iPad came out, they wanted to have an app for it. We had no idea- we knew nothing about building apps for the iPhone or iPad. And so we started learning about that, and so when I built that first project for them, I did all the Photoshop design, and like barely got into Xcode. And then later, you know, the next app that I worked on for them, I implemented the design in Interface Builder and Xcode, but didn't do any of the programming.
Speaker 1:And so after that, I had my feet wet, I knew kind of how things worked. And I was looking to learn more programming. So I was headed to an event in San Jose called iOS Dev Camp. And it's a weekend hackathon hosted at the PayPal offices. And I needed a project.
Speaker 1:And so I was looking for what am I going to build. And my sister-in-law worked with Kids with Autism and had told me about these ruggedized PCs that everybody was using. If you can imagine a touch screen device running Windows XP, and you see the little cursor on there and stuff, it's an absolutely horrible experience. And so with the iPad coming out, there's a market for it. And a few people were porting solutions over, but the user interface and user experience was downright awful.
Speaker 1:So I knew about that and showed up to the iOS dev camp expecting to join somebody else's team to hack on stuff for the weekend. And there just didn't come across anything that I really wanted to work on. So, I was there with a friend and he said, well, why don't we work on this idea you have? And, so over the weekend he helped me hack it out. And you know, we had a working prototype by the end of the weekend.
Speaker 1:And then it took four more months to get it to a Right. Release level
Speaker 2:state. Think you're the
Speaker 1:That's kind of the sort.
Speaker 2:I think you're the first person I've met that's actually made that much money in the App Store. I know a lot of people that launch products in the App Store, but you know a couple grand worth of revenue a month, that's fairly significant.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. There seems to be a mix of people who do really, really well and people who don't do anything at all. Yeah. And so I try to play the middle of the road where I think since January 2011, so we're at just over two years, and I've done about I wanna say 55,000 in revenue.
Speaker 2:Wow. And I mean, this app is $200. Right? Like, not a $2 app. That's really interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So the app plus the iPad, you know, is gonna run you $506,100 dollars The device it replaces will run you seven, eight thousand dollars. Yeah. So I figured 10% of the competition was a decent place to be.
Speaker 2:And who's buying this app? Is it organizations? Is it, you know, is it caretakers? Who is the customer for this?
Speaker 1:So a lot of it is parents who have kids with autism. It'll be speech and language pathologists who are the ones who are helping the kids learn how to speak in a way that works for them. Or it'll be schools. Schools will often buy 20 copies in bulk or something.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 3:So when you guys started building this in this hackathon, did you guys have, like, this in mind, turning it into, like, a you know, an app that was gonna sell close to $60,000 worth? Or was it just sort of like, let's learn programming, let's hack on it and see what happens?
Speaker 1:Yeah. It was let's hack on it and go from there. I always planned to sell it for something.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:You know, I thought about releasing it for a dollar, $5, something $10, something like that. The thing is, I wanted to make a really good product. And if I released it for $5, the market I'm selling to is really, really small. So maybe I would have made a couple thousand dollars off of it, and I just couldn't afford to invest a ton of time and hire another developer when I would get stuck and that kind of thing to make a really great product, if I'm not making money off of it. So I wanted to do the right thing for my customers, and charge enough money so that I could invest the time to make a great product.
Speaker 3:I like how you said that. Do the right thing for your customers by charging them more. Like, it totally makes sense. But it's kind of like a counterintuitive thing to think about, right, when you think about pricing your product. You think about pricing it lower.
Speaker 3:Lower is what, like, benefits your your customers.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And what benefits your customers is a company that stays around and delivers quality products and supports them well.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That is counterintuitive, though, for a lot of people, that that idea of pricing on value and pricing for the long haul. You know, most people who launch apps in the App Store sell it for 99¢. So it's interesting that you recognize that so early as, you know, as you were building products that that's that's fairly significant.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think pricing is a is a very important topic and it's obviously made a huge difference for me.
Speaker 2:Okay. So let's let's fast forward. You we've we have a lot of stuff we wanna talk to you about. I wanna make sure we get it get to it all. Let's fast forward to the app design handbook.
Speaker 2:What what was behind that idea? How did that come around?
Speaker 1:So I've been building apps like One Voice. I had another app called Commit that I built. A bunch of apps for freelancing clients, basically. And I was starting to get people, you know, friends and others asking me, Where do you learn to design apps? Everyone else I knew who was building iPhone apps came from it, or came to the world from the development side.
Speaker 1:And I was the opposite where I came from the design side and was trying to learn to program. They came from the development side and they were trying to make decent looking apps. And Apple had set the standard really, really high. And everybody was having a really hard time meeting that standard. I had a couple friends that it was really frustrating them, because they couldn't find resources specific to designing apps.
Speaker 1:Everything about web design and all of that, and a tiny bit of it applied over. Anyway, so I knew that was a demand. And so I very casually started working on some tutorials, a book for that. But I thought of it more of, okay, I could spend some free time and help people to learn this. Like, that's a worthy cause, can do that.
Speaker 1:And then, two designers who I admire very much, Sasha Greif and Jared Drysdale, released design ebooks on the same day. I would say it was like 03/25/2012 or something like that. Yeah. Wait, is that
Speaker 2:date right?
Speaker 3:I know, I was like, if he says about and then gives an actual date.
Speaker 1:It was somewhere right around. It will go with the March. Don't know the exact date. Yeah. But then it was interesting, because they had two different pricing models, and there was a lot of great stuff to learn from that, but there was a total chance that they released on the same day.
Speaker 1:And everybody was focused on, in different blog posts, on which pricing model was better. And I just sat back and looked at that, went, wait a second. You made like $6 in forty eight hours, and you made $8 in forty eight hours, and neither of you have an audience that's that much bigger than mine. Thirty seven signals writes about publishing and selling their book getting real as an e book, and they put in some ridiculous numbers like, and we made $500,000 when we first put it out. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I can't relate to those numbers at all. I know that I can't, within the next couple of years, achieve a 37 signals audience. And so that's not very helpful to me. But I can look at what Jared and Sasha did and go, okay. I can achieve those numbers.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that you could sell an e book, a technical e book like that and make meaningful money from it. And so that was the motivation I needed to take my random notes and my ideas about a book and bring it to life.
Speaker 2:So let's keep going then. How big of an audience did you have when you started? And how did you build that audience until launch time?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I had I was getting a couple thousand visitors a month to my blog. And I was trying to publish a post about something once a week, and I was fairly consistent. You know, I think that July 2012, I got maybe five or 8,000 visitors that month. Okay.
Speaker 1:Which I was fairly happy with, but I didn't have email lists of any kind. My RSS subscribers were like 50. My Twitter followers were maybe 600 or something. I'd been online for a little while, but hadn't gotten any real traction. And I made a commitment around then when I decided I was going to get serious about finishing the book that I was going to write 1,000 words every day.
Speaker 1:And that's how I was going to actually finish the book. Because I had started writing books a handful of times before. Yeah. And never made you know, the motivation had fizzled out and I'd never made more progress. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So another blogger, an author named Chris Guillebeau had really inspired me because he talked about writing a thousand words a day and how with that consistent progress you end up writing well over 300,000 words a year. And that just seemed totally crazy to me. But I thought about it, I'm like, okay, if I spent an hour or two a day writing, I can achieve that. And at the very least, I could actually finish my book. For the first time, could actually,
Speaker 2:you know,
Speaker 1:finish the book that I work on. Conveniently, I had already written an app called Commit that tracks habits. And so the idea is if you want to get good at something, should do it consistently every day. So I put that into commit. I will write 1,000 words a day.
Speaker 1:And it took me a while to get it going. But I eventually got it so that I was writing consistently. And now I've kept it going. So now I'm on day two zero three,
Speaker 2:I think. Really?
Speaker 1:Of writing a thousand words a day. Wow. And that's the thing that has absolutely changed everything. It's changed my blog, my business, my finances, everything. Because producing that much content, you can do a ton of stuff.
Speaker 1:Right? That's two books, that's 25 or 30 guest posts, another 30 posts on my own blog. Anyway. Wow.
Speaker 3:Man, so when you started this, how much were you writing when you first started? Because I know for me, like starting with writing is like super hard and I get stuck and frustrated. So like writing that first thousand words is probably the hardest. So how did you like keep that going at the start?
Speaker 1:So there's another quote that I got from Chris Guillebeau. And it's not actually he didn't actually say it. I don't know who did. But I learned it from him. And that was, when you hit writer's block, lower your standards and keep writing.
Speaker 1:And that made a huge difference for me. Because I would spend a lot of time, and I think this is what a lot of people do, writing a sentence and then rewriting that same sentence over and over again, and not making any progress. And so I actually printed out that quote and put it next to my monitor. And so I would hit that point of writer's block where and then I would just go, you know what? I can edit.
Speaker 1:I can fix that later. What's more important is that I get this thought out there. And so that makes it easier where I get stuck, look over, see the quote, and just make sure I communicate the thought. And then make sure to spend plenty of time editing later.
Speaker 3:Right. So with all this stuff that you're producing, you said that's guest posts, that's posts for your blog, it's two books. How like how much of that content that you produce do you actually end up using in some way? Like is some of it do you just kind of toss it aside and just be like, I wrote my thousand words for that day. It's not great, but I wrote a thousand words and tomorrow you'll do something different.
Speaker 1:I'd say I use between 8090%. Oh, wow. So a lot of it, certainly not all. And it gets cut down, especially when working on the books. I end up cutting out a lot of stuff where I'm like, that's redundant or things like that.
Speaker 1:But going back to building up to the book launch, so it took me a while to get to the point where I would consistently write every day. You know, it would be smaller amounts or that sort of thing. It helps that my phone would pop up and remind me at 10:00 every night and say, did you write your 1,000 words today? Yeah. So what I started doing is once I'd made enough progress on the book that I knew I would actually finish it, because that had been an issue for me before, Then I put up a landing page that said, here's the name of the book.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I had a little book graphic and an email sign up form and a few sentences about it. It said, if you want to hear about the book when it launches, put in your email address. There wasn't any real incentive or offer for a discount or anything like that that I would do now. But that page was there.
Speaker 1:I probably put that page up mid July twenty twelve. And just tweeted about it. I think I submitted it to Hacker News and it made the homepage for probably twenty minutes or something like that.
Speaker 2:Why do you think it made the homepage on Hacker News if it's just a landing page? What was significant about that that grabbed people?
Speaker 1:I think it was moderately well designed and people went, oh, you know, a book about designing apps, sure, I wanna know when it comes out. Know?
Speaker 3:Hacker News actually seems to be a great audience for that kind of stuff because there's so many co who are like, I could do this all if I just knew how to design. So I've seen a few.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And, you know, with Hacker News, I always try to think, I never know what's going to do well necessarily and what mean, there's stuff you can predict. But often the audience really resonate with some people. I think I got probably 150 people to put in their email address from it being posted to Hacker News. Interesting.
Speaker 1:That was good. Then what I started doing was writing blog posts and putting a form at the bottom of the blog post. So it would be a tutorial on something related to app design. And then at the bottom, it would say, if you enjoyed this, I've got a book coming out. Put in your email address to hear about when it's announced.
Speaker 1:And I wrote some pretty popular posts, like one was dissecting the new Facebook app update. They came out with a new version. At a glance, it was basically the same design wise. And I pulled them up side by side, and I think I titled the post User Experience Lessons from the New Facebook App. Because there were a lot of really interesting details that they changed.
Speaker 1:And so anyway, that post resonated with a lot of people and got a lot of shares on Twitter. And so I think by the time I launched the book, which was September 4, I had almost 800 people that had put in their email address. And none of those were from one huge source. It was just a lot of adding a couple a day type of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Interesting. Why don't we kind of end off this first part here because I want to get more into the details on how you actually accomplished all this. But why don't we end this first part here just by talking a little bit about what has building your own products meant for you and your family? Because you're a family man now.
Speaker 2:You're married and you have a kid. So what has all of this meant for you guys just as a family?
Speaker 1:So it's meant a lot of things. It's been a huge lifestyle change. I used to be, especially for the last year or so that I held a regular job, I was fairly frustrated and complained about it relatively often. I still have things I complain to my wife about, but my job is not one of them And we travel quite a lot. I just got back from Costa Rica a couple days ago.
Speaker 1:Going to Miami next week. Hawaii in a few more weeks. So I try to go to a handful of countries a year. This last summer, it took five weeks, and my wife and our one and a half year old son took five weeks and traveled through England, Wales, Scotland, Italy and Switzerland. Yeah, it's just there's so much freedom that you can do when you work for yourself, have a decent amount of money saved.
Speaker 1:And yeah. And now I'm in much better financial position than I was even then.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And you've posted on your blog that in October 2011 you were making $60,000 a year. So it sounds like you've significantly improved your financial situation as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have. I was very happy when I got that job making $60,000 a year. At 18 I was thrilled.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's incredible.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But last, I posted on the blog for my year end numbers that I did about 145,000 for 2012. And so it's just a huge increase. And actually, I did the majority of that in the last four months. And so I expect 2013 to be far bigger.
Speaker 1:Products are just the way to go. Much There's potential for leverage. Rather than trading time for money, I can now take marketing knowledge and leverage a product to huge amounts of money. At least to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:But You can kind of keep building up on your past successes, right? Like now you've kind of got an audience who's previously bought and loved the things you've put out there. So now instead of blogging and hoping that they don't just disappear into the void, you've kind of got people who it's hitting right away that if they liked what you did the first time, there's a good chance that they're going buy from you again. You're never starting over from scratch again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's something I want to mention while I'm thinking about it. And if you post that you built a product and you're sharing the numbers, say that post makes it on Hacker News, there will be a lot of comments of people going, Okay, you made x number of dollars. You worked however many hours. Let's try to estimate that. And that came out to $40 an hour.
Speaker 1:If you're a decent programmer, you should be able to pull in more than whatever that came out to. So it was a poor use of your time. And I see that all the time over the web, people will say, your time would have been better spent just doing contract design and development work. And there's something that you just brought up, Kyle, and that's that when you sell products, you're able to build on what you do. So if I do a great project, a great freelance design project, for a client where I have an NDA in place and I can't talk about it, that does not help me other than a tiny skill increase for my next project.
Speaker 1:If instead I'm blogging, I'm selling products, say my first book, I sell a few 100 copies. Then after that, I've got say 300 people that have paid me before, who obviously value what I do, and that is built up, and I can leverage that for future products. And so there's this hidden cost to contract work in that it's hidden away in a closet and nobody knows about it. And so I think everybody has to factor that in when they're making a trade off between building products and doing contract work. It's not just about the money.
Speaker 1:Other elements that you have to think about.
Speaker 3:It's kind of like investing in any asset, right? Like upfront, you might take a loss, but over time that asset is gonna more than pay for kind of what you lost on it upfront. But that's the whole point behind assets and investments and products are the same thing pretty much. Yep, exactly.
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